Re: [新聞] 遭指涉中國器官買賣 柯P否認

作者: darren8221 (鯰魚)   2014-10-27 22:13:43
全段翻譯,文長,拙劣文筆獻醜一下。
大意是這樣的:
1. 作者訪問柯文哲有關活摘器官的事,柯文哲說有。
2. 作者腦補了超大一段(至少這段沒有根據)
(從「我們訪問他的幾年前」一直到「……良心發現和自我保護開始」一整串)
3. 柯文哲秀了器官移植系統,作者說這系統很棒,但是中國不要,原因你知道的。
4. https://www.facebook.com/grandlaw.wt/posts/860670837324892
這段我沒有翻,作者盛讚柯文哲(雖然作者話唬爛很大)
9 ORGANS OF THE STATE 器官的國度
There's a set moment in an interview when both sides feel out each other's
intentions, and initially, I thought I was the problem.
一開始我們都在猜測對方的目的,我覺得那應該是我的問題。
I wasn't quite ready to explain to Dr. Ko Wen-je — a senior surgeon at
National Taiwan University Hospital—that Leeshai had obtained his name
through the Taiwanese medical grapevine by asking for someone who might
know something about mainland transplants...in short, that our sitting
down together was an absurd long shot.1
我其實沒準備好要跟柯文哲(台大醫院的外科醫師)說,理善(音)是從台灣的
醫學情報網裡某個可能知道中國器官移植的人那邊,拿到他的名字的。
總之,我們花了莫名其妙地久才坐下來談論這件事。
Nothing about Dr. Ko's demeanor, his urbane manner, even the sophistication
of his gentle handshake suggested mainland rigidity or some sort of prejudice,
but the air felt distinctly ominous, as if a thunderstorm was imminent.
柯文哲的舉止、文雅的禮儀和輕柔的握手都看不出有任何關於中國大陸的刻板印象或
偏見。但整體氣氛令人感到不詳,就像暴風雨前要來一樣。
※文中用 mainland, 這邊就翻中國大陸或大陸。
It didn't help that both of us — I'm a big guy and Ko's unusually tall —
were perched on two flimsy plastic chairs inside a cramped little office,
close enough to smell each other's sweat. I blandly opened by telling Dr. Ko
that I was interested in any information he might be able to provide about
organ harvesting in the mainland. Dr. Ko dismissed my quest as futile.
就算我跟柯文哲都很高,我們坐在這狹窄辦公室的兩張破爛塑膠椅子上,
彼此接近得都能聞到對方的汗味,這一點用都沒有。
我輕輕地開啟話題,告訴柯文哲我對他所能提供任何有關大陸器官移植的資訊有興趣。
柯文哲說我問這問題一點用都沒有。
With impatient authority, Ko laid down all the confining features:
There is no centralized database of organ donors in China. Instead, doctors
use an informal eBay-style system because it's an entrepreneurial business
that operates in a gray market.
柯文哲不耐煩又權威地把阻礙這些資訊的特徵講過一遍:
中國沒有器官捐贈的中央資料庫。中國的醫生用的是不太正式的像拍賣網站的系統。
那是一家企業在經營的灰色市場。
Hospital staffers use their personal connections to acquire donors and
recipients alike. Advertising for organ transplants appears not only on
the web (bait for foreigners, and I'd seen some of those sites) but also
at the street level for potential Chinese patrons — stickers in phone
booths, ads in little trade newspapers, flyers on bulletin boards.
The similarity to escort services ran through my mind.
醫院的職員利用個人關係來取得器官捐贈者和領受者。而關於器官移植的廣告出現在
網路上(用以釣取外國人,我看過),也出現在街頭釣那些中國顧客,例如說,話亭
、小報紙裡面的小廣告,公告欄上的傳單之類的。
我腦中也閃過了那些運送器官的行業會做的事情。
Perhaps a minute flicker of disgust crossed my face. Perhaps not.
Either way, Dr. Ko appeared to take the silence as a challenge,
and his voice rose slightly. "You really don't understand, do you?
You can do whatever you want in China. Cut someone up. Cut their dick off
if you like." He showed his teeth as he presented me with a smile that
wasn't pleasant. This was unsettling.
也許我的表情閃過一絲噁心,也許沒有。無論如何,柯文哲似乎把這當作我在質疑他。
他稍微抬高聲音說,「你真的不知道?在中國,只要你想,什麼事都可以做。
切掉一個人,把他閹了,如果你想要的話。」他微笑,微笑帶著不悅。這讓人很不安。
Yet my real fear was not that he would call me a stupid foreigner again
but that he would shut down the interview. I had no choice but to be
perfectly candid: "Look, I am not from a government agency. I can't make
you talk about this. I'm just a writer. I have no power to prosecute you
or cause trouble for your practice. And I know that you care about your
patients. By going to the mainland for transplants, you are saving lives."
不過我怕的不是他又說我笨,我怕他中止這場面談。我只好坦承:「我跟你說,
我不是從政府機構來的,我不能強迫你說這些,我只是個作家。我沒辦法迫害你
或是讓你的業務惹上什麼麻煩。我知道你很照顧你的病人,你如果有去中國進行移植,
你是在救人。」
Leeshai jumped in: "I've just come from Israel. The government has banned
organ tourism to China because there is no way of determining whether an
organ comes from a legally executed criminal or a prisoner of conscience."
理善接著說:「我剛從以色列回來,他們禁止以找尋器官的名義前往中國,因為
他們沒有辦法知道這些器官來自於合法處死的刑犯或是良心犯。」
"Do you want that to happen here?" I added. "It will, if it's not cleaned
up.... So is it true? Aren't prisoners of conscience — Falun Gong, perhaps
others, being harvested?"
「你希望這些發生在這裡(台灣)嗎?」我補充道。「如果沒整頓好,這會發生的……
所以這是真的嗎?那些良善的人,法輪功的人,或者其他的,都被活摘器官?」
What happened next was something I thought only occurred in the movies.
Ko's body seemed to simply retract, his jaw, his shoulders collapsing.
His eyes gazing at the emptiness of the wall, he fell into a barely
audible hiss. "Yes," Dr. Ko said, "Yes, they are doing that. Yes, it's true."2
接著我似乎看到了電影場景。柯文哲似乎縮回了身體,下巴和肩膀垮了下來。
他凝視著空無一物的牆壁,聲音只剩下微弱幾乎不可聞的嘶嘶聲。
他說:「對,他們正在做那些事情,那是真的。」
(以下都是作者所言,柯文哲一個訪問的字都沒講)
A few years before we showed up at his office, Dr. Ko began thinking about
going to the mainland to acquire human organs.3
我們訪問他的幾年前,柯文哲開始想要到中國獲得醫療用器官。
It wasn't a pleasant decision; he was a conscientious and careful surgeon,
not a gambler. But the waiting period for a liver or even a kidney in Taiwan
could be as long as two or three years. Time enough for many of his elderly
patients to simply waste away. And if Chinese hospitals could perform the
soup-to-nuts services they claimed on the web — donor to order, tissue
match, surgery, observation, drug therapy, recovery — patients who could
barely be loaded onto a plane might come back as human beings who had
successfully digested their airline meal, weren't sure they actually
needed the wheelchair, and tearfully hugged their grandchildren.
那絕對是個痛苦的決定。他是個本著良心又思考縝密的外科醫生,而非一介賭徒。
然而在台灣等待肝臟或腎臟移植的時間可能長達兩三年,他的病患只能拖時間。
如果中國醫院能夠進行這種一條龍式的醫療(選擇捐贈者、組織比對、手術、觀察、
藥物治療以及康復),也許幾乎撐不了去程飛機的患者能吃著回程的飛機餐,
哭著抱自己的孫子,連需不需要做輪椅都可以再想想。
Taiwan was a death sentence: mainland Chinese hospitals were blatantly
advertising a tissue-matched organ within a week or perhaps two.
He didn't particularly want to look behind the mainland curtain, that's all.
台灣的環境(對患者來說)就是宣判死刑。中國醫院公然廣告著兩週可換器官的事蹟。
他(柯文哲)真的不是很想管背後發生的事情,就這樣。
Yes, you could do anything you liked in China. And castration wasn't all
that different from what he was trying to do; it was common knowledge that
the organs were being taken from executed prisoners on death row. So if his
job was to ride his fragile patients into the wild, wild east and bring them
back alive, okay, but even that wasn't certain; the criminal lifestyle led to
a high probability of drug use or promiscuous sex. Hepatitis, just for
starters, was rampant. Labor camp led to stress and malnutrition. Any, or
perhaps all, of these medical histories would now be given a second life in
his patients' bodies. And what was the recourse if something went wrong in
this highly competitive business fought out in a legal no-man's land?
在中國,真的想做什麼就做什麼。閹割其實也跟他(柯文哲)在做的事情沒差多少。
死囚牢房的犯人被處決之後,器官被捐贈出去這件事情算是常識了。
所以如果他的工作就是將病人移動到遠方,讓他正常活著回來,那也就算了,
偏偏這些囚犯以前過的生活常常是吸毒,又關係複雜、放蕩。
肝炎只是第一個要考慮的問題,這種問題非常猖獗。而勞役又帶來壓力和營養不良。
這些器官要是移植到他的病患體內,這些特質也會伴隨著。
要是出了什麼差錯,在這沒法制的國家,要怎麼求償?
Nor were his patients rich. Taiwan was still an emerging tiger;
his patients had lived interesting lives to be sure, but modest ones.
A glance at the web established the foreigner price of $ 62,000 (US) for a
kidney. Because the Chinese regarded the Taiwanese as slick foreigners
wearing a Chinese mask, that would be his price, too. Yet native Chinese
were paying half that or even less.4 This injustice gnawed at him.
Somehow, where so many Taiwanese businessmen before him had failed,
Dr. Ko would have to convince the mainland doctors he was not a foreign
devil but a brother.
他的病患並不富有。台灣還是個新興市場,他的病患生活得還可以,但也就是平凡度日。
網路上,對外國人,腎臟的售價是 62,000 美金,而因為中國認為台灣是戴著中國
面具的外國人,台灣人也該付這個價錢。不過中國人就只需要負一半以下的價格。
這種不公平讓柯文哲很困擾。因為許多台灣商人先前的失敗,柯文哲必須要說服
中國醫師,說他並非洋鬼子,而是兄弟。
Dr. Ko went to China and meticulously worked through the checklist of
intimacy with his medical colleagues: The go-to-hell banquet. The karaoke bar. The cognac followed by
the Mao-Tai. The subtle flattery and the jokes about his accent. And when the
ritual was truly finished, and everyone had sobered up, the Chinese surgeons
summoned him. You are one of us. You are a brother. So we will give you the
family price. But we are going to do more for you than that. We noted your
worries and concerns about organ quality. And we trust your discretion. So
you will have no worries for your patients. They will receive nothing but the
best: all the organs will come from Falun Gong. These people may be a little
fanatical, but you know? They don't drink. They don't smoke. Many of them are
young, and they all practice healthy Chinese qigong. Soon your patients —
they will be young and healthy, too.
柯文哲到了中國,認真仔細地與醫界同僚搏感情:要命的盛筵、卡拉OK,茅台酒。
微妙的阿諛和口音的揶揄。這些儀式結束,大家清醒之後,中國的外科醫師召他來,說,
你是我們的一份子,你是哥兒們,我們給你友情價。當然我們發現你很注重器官品質,
不用擔心,你的病人會得到最好的器官,捐贈者都是法輪功人,雖然他們有點狂熱,
但他們不菸不酒,還練氣功呢,你的病患很快就會痊癒。
And Dr. Ko smiled and thanked them politely, and the process began.
But at the point of victory, Ko had felt no relief, only something
that gnawed at him far worse than before.
柯文哲微笑禮謝,而程序(?)就開始了。不過就在這看似成功的當下,
柯文哲不覺得輕鬆,反而良心不安。
Something he could not speak of. Even as he set up appointments for his
patients on the mainland, Dr. Ko kept thinking that there must be a way
to rationalize the system, to apply some oversight, some sort of technical fix.
他說不出來的感覺。就算他安排著病患前往大陸,他一直在想一定有些方法可以
整理、監督整個體制,用某些技術整頓。
Now that the mainland doctors had blood on their hands there was no obvious
path to medical reform. An open discussion would require dredging up the past.
The party would never allow the slaughter of prisoners of conscience to be
revealed to the world—in fact, his Chinese surgeon friends had already let
him know discreetly that the harvesting of Falun Gong would be put on hold as
the Olympics approached. But don't worry, they reassured him, when the
Olympics are over it will start up again!
大陸醫生的手上沾滿著血腥,而且沒有顯而易見的醫療改革的道路。
要對這一塊公開討論,會需要把過去的問題扒梳過一次,
黨不會讓這種殺良心犯的事情公諸於世的。
其實,柯文哲的醫療同僚朋友也告訴他,活摘器官這件事情因為奧運舉辦會暫時停止。
不過反正奧運結束之後就會重新開始,也沒什麼好擔心的。
Perhaps the way forward was to use that brief hiatus as an opening to
implement good bureaucratic hygiene, something to raise the cost of keeping
secrets? There was plenty of talk about consent forms — making the prisoner
sign a release donating his or her organ to the nation "as a final penance"
or something like that. But the surgeon knew the labor-camp administrators
could get anyone to sign anything. Reform had to start with the doctors'
conscience and sense of self-preservation.
說不定未來的道路是用這些短暫的空隙來實現好的官場透明度,讓隱瞞祕密的成本上升?
關於器官捐贈同意書(讓死囚簽署,讓他們捐贈器官作為「最後的贖罪」)的討論早已
甚囂塵上。不過他們這些醫生也都知道勞教所的管理員能逼他們簽任何東西。
醫改需要從醫生的良心發現和自我保護開始。
(一直到這裡柯文哲還是一個字都沒講,都作者在講)
On his own time, Dr. Ko labored to create a national database system,
a mandatory electronic form just for the surgeon. For every organ acquired,
the doctor would have to fill in details on individual donor health,
medical background, blood type, address, arrest record, everything.
柯文哲用自己的私人時間,建立了強制性的全國器官移植系統。對於每次器官移植,
醫生都必須詳細填寫捐贈者的健康狀況、醫療背景、血型、地址、犯罪紀錄和一切細節。
Dr. Ko moved us over to his desktop computer, and we looked it over.
It was beautiful actually — simple, clear, mainland-user friendly —
something even a barefoot doctor could use. Maybe he could even have sold
the system to the Chinese medical establishment, even received some sort of
compensation, and yet — that gnaw again — even if the mainland doctors
adopted the system, "you would only remove 95 percent of the problem,"
Ko said, shaking his head.
柯文哲帶著我們到他的電腦旁看這個系統。很漂亮的系統,簡單明瞭,對大陸的用戶也
很友善,連剛上手的醫師也能用。說不定他本來能把這系統賣去中國的,還能拿到
一些補償。不過就算中國的醫生真的用了這些系統,「還是只能解決 95 % 的問題。」
柯文哲搖著頭說。
Anyway, they rejected it.
不過,無論如何,中國方面拒絕了這套系統。
It was obvious in retrospect that it was okay for the mainland doctors to
run a sort of informal auction for organ trading, done through e-mails and
discrete online user groups, but Ko's forms would either cut out too many
donors from the system, create too much of a level playing field, or perhaps
simply leave too much of an electronic trail. It was too late in the day,
and it was sickening; the rejection was passed on to Dr. Ko with the respect
you give to a distant cousin who doesn't quite get it.
現在回想起來,很明顯地,中國醫生覺得不要太正式地拍賣器官,用 email 和網路
帳戶來處理,是沒什麼問題的。不過柯文哲的系統要嘛會切掉太多捐贈者的器官,
要嘛會創造出公平的環境,說不定還會留下太多電子資料。
這件事情為時已晚,且令人作嘔,柯文哲被拒絕了,就像尊重著遠房親戚,
對方卻不明白。
Dr. Ko was whispering now: "But something should be done. Something should
be done." A year or so after the database was rejected, Dr. Ko gave an
anonymous interview to an American writer—well, we thought it was
anonymous anyway—and the surgeon was banned from the mainland.5
柯文著喃喃自語地說:「這本來就該做,本來就該做的。」
大概在他的系統被拒絕一年之後,
柯文哲由一位美國作家匿名(好吧至少我們這樣想)訪問,於是,他被禁止入境中國。
作者: CharleneTsai (給他200塊去吃麥當勞啦)   2014-10-27 22:17:00
中間那段根本就是寫小說嘛 = =
作者: goodday362 (dark)   2014-10-27 22:17:00
辛苦了
作者: patato2 (㊣裁判殺手熊㊣)   2014-10-27 22:17:00
小說無誤
作者: happinessum (バナージ・リンクス)   2014-10-27 22:17:00
所以要嘛記者英文程度很爛 要嘛就是故意裝看不懂
作者: ZC (***********************)   2014-10-27 22:18:00
推一個!
作者: chyou2003 (Smelly Cat ^^)   2014-10-27 22:18:00
還是那個童什麼的律師看到影就開槍?
作者: Aoife (Aoife)   2014-10-27 22:20:00
他們之間的英文溝通可能有點問題
作者: kid725 (凱道基德)   2014-10-27 22:22:00
這個作者很明顯根本就用有色眼光看柯文哲
作者: yuching726   2014-10-27 22:23:00
簡單地講,和大陸醫生搏感情談買賣那一段可能是虛構的
作者: kid725 (凱道基德)   2014-10-27 22:23:00
用了很多非主觀的方式來抹柯文哲說他有罪惡感及不耐煩
作者: lianhua (墨心鏡情)   2014-10-27 22:24:00
推 去看那個姓童的臉書 翻的語法超不通順還斷章取義
作者: darren8221 (鯰魚)   2014-10-27 22:24:00
我倒覺得這很正常,以前的柯文哲就這個形象 XD"
作者: Yanrei (大小姐萬歲!)   2014-10-27 22:24:00
這作者自己腦內補完的能力非常的強大……訪問的內容到底說
作者: maelbex (Brother)   2014-10-27 22:24:00
所以是個譁眾取寵的垃圾作者?
作者: scratch01 (......)   2014-10-27 22:24:00
就抹黑無極限
作者: Alubasong (Moving Forward)   2014-10-27 22:24:00
不可能有醫生知道器官是法輪功的還安排這些事情吧
作者: Castor (滿載一船星輝)   2014-10-27 22:25:00
辛苦了~我剛剛還在想找原文看~原作用了很多主觀的描述
作者: wakaul (日京一自八)   2014-10-27 22:26:00
鄉民怎麼可以反大紀元? 這作者支持法輪功耶!!!怎可亂噓?? 大逆不道
作者: Castor (滿載一船星輝)   2014-10-27 22:26:00
像是創作而不是採訪報導,不過他並沒有暗稱柯買賣器官
作者: higreater (覺醒)   2014-10-27 22:27:00
中間那段太誇張 再加上童本來就看柯不對眼…呵呵
作者: Castor (滿載一船星輝)   2014-10-27 22:27:00
只是說他知情,但想要建立一個公平的制度
作者: higreater (覺醒)   2014-10-27 22:29:00
簡單說 不是童英文太爛就是他刻意想婊柯啦!還講柯承認買賣器官哩!嘖嘖!
作者: maelbex (Brother)   2014-10-27 22:29:00
補推
作者: plsear (普西兒)   2014-10-27 22:31:00
柯p是台灣醫生 跟他有什麼關係?! 謝翻譯
作者: doun (嚕啦嚕啦勒)   2014-10-27 22:32:00
感謝翻譯!
作者: victoryman (聖立祐 彭馬利哥)   2014-10-27 22:33:00
感謝翻譯!
作者: rockyue (...)   2014-10-27 22:35:00
可見柯英文真的不錯 XD
作者: sunnyC (為什麼這麼好笑)   2014-10-27 22:39:00
幫高調
作者: Yuwuen (遊玩)   2014-10-27 22:40:00
這到底是在寫什麼啊XDDDDD 到底有沒有訪問哩XDDDDDDDDDD
作者: kirkkirkkk (小肯)   2014-10-27 22:41:00
高調推
作者: imlkw (OH~~~~)   2014-10-27 22:45:00
這外國記者在寫小說喔. 媽的 柯文哲沒講的話亂扣在人家頭上
作者: bibigaga (畢畢尬尬)   2014-10-27 22:47:00
那個姓童的就法輪功阿 利用柯p的名氣拉他下水
作者: imlkw (OH~~~~)   2014-10-27 22:48:00
媽的,亞斯伯格症這種不闇社交的人會跟人搏感情, 記者智障嗎
作者: germing   2014-10-27 22:50:00
= =遺憾 至少輪子在港學運期間報導跟港媒蠻接近的 而且事件ㄧ開始就率先分析出梁是鷹派 後來港媒也跟進 但是不是江派就不曉得 這些民運社團本身就很複雜 我也不知該說啥 = = 只好回去多看美國之音
作者: imlkw (OH~~~~)   2014-10-27 22:54:00
光看搏感情這段就知道作者在幻想.柯文哲這種社交白癡辦不到
作者: g8330330 (負債700萬)   2014-10-27 22:57:00
辛苦了 誰在救人誰在黑心大家都很清楚我姑姑也是去中國換腎 一顆100萬台灣排不到 去大陸花錢就有
作者: germing   2014-10-27 23:02:00
美國之音對中共內鬥的分析又有點保守 遺憾
作者: eldar (0.0)   2014-10-27 23:15:00
真的像在寫小說,一個訪談提一堆不重要的細節。然後對柯又先入為主,加一堆腦補
作者: RonaldPan (The Lovely Bones)   2014-10-27 23:19:00
作者: victoryman (聖立祐 彭馬利哥)   2014-10-27 23:37:00
故事真好 翻譯也超好的 超好的 我還連看了兩次
作者: Xavier114 (不要不要不要~~~)   2014-10-27 23:56:00
推!!

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