[外電] Zobrist的例子和多重守位的重要性

作者: WingedHussar (寂寞哥)   2014-11-13 17:05:38
原文連結:http://ppt.cc/ADQH
Positional Versatility and the Zobrist Fallacy
Sometimes we’re taught to value the wrong things. Usually this happens
because, at some point prior, our elders didn’t know any better. An idea
gets ingrained into our culture and passed down from generation to generation
without ever really being questioned. Certain contrarians and rabble rousers
try to shake things up, but they’re almost always shouted down.
There is this thing—some fact or idea—that we know to be true, and it leads
to all sorts of other conclusions about related matters. This is why RBI and
wins remain so popular in baseball. There was a time when they were the best
stats we had, and changing your values when new information comes around is a
challenge for many people. We sometimes call this inertial reasoning.
But this isn’t about RBI or wins. I’ll spare you that diatribe. This is
about something else entirely. It’s about the way our conception of what a
player ought to be leads us to look down upon one of the most unique and
impressive players in baseball.
This is a story about Ben Zobrist and what it means to be a great player.
我們常被一些錯誤觀念誤導,因為許多舊的觀念一代一代傳下來並沒有受到甚麼質疑。
例如勝投和RBI依然在棒球界盛行是因為在過去那是最好的評估工具,而人們不願意輕易
改變價值觀。本文將藉由Ben Zobrist的例子來告訴你為何他是很好的選手。
The well-educated but unobsessed baseball fan likely knows two things about
Zobrist. First, he plays a lot of different positions for the Rays. Second,
people like me won’t shut up about how Zobrist is so underrated.
That’s the book on Zobrist. He’s a super-utility guy whom a small army of
baseball nerds seem to think is the second coming of Stan Musial. You might
even been aware of the fact that Wins Above Replacement (WAR) seems to adore
Zobrist. Lots of WAR skeptics like to point to that and use it as an example
of WAR’s imperfections, its flaws.
WAR doesn’t work because it says Ben Zobrist is about as good as Miguel
Cabrera and Robinson Cano. That’s the message. This is something that just
cannot be so. WAR is new. It requires a mix of math and subjectivity, and you
can’t calculate it with two swipes on a keyboard. So when it tells you
something you don’t believe, you dismiss it. Mock it.Forget it.
This formula says Ben Zobrist is one of the five best players in baseball.
What a joke.
大部分球迷對於Ben Zobrist的印象大概就兩個。1.他在光芒守過許多位置 2.許多人一
直強調他被低估了。 這也是Ben Zobrist有趣的地方,他是個多守位野手;而從WAR的
角度看他簡直是強爆惹,他的WAR值和Miguel Cabrera差不多,當然許多人認為這就是
WAR的缺陷所在,Ben Zobrist怎麼可能和Miguel Cabrera一樣強?!
WAR告訴我們Ben Zobrist是最好的五名棒球選手之一? 真是笑話!!
Let’s start at the end, though. WAR loves Zobrist. From 2009 to 2012,
Zobrist ranked second to Cabrera with 24.3 WAR to Cabrera’s 24.9. From 2009
to 2013, Zobrist trailed only Cabrera and teammate Evan Longoria. He became a
full-time player in 2009 and since then, WAR says he’s been the second-most
valuable position player in the entire sport.
Zobrist從2009~2012的WAR是24.3僅次於Cabrera的24.9。至2013年為止WAR說他是
全美第二有價值的棒球員。
Zobrist has a .270 batting average during that time and fewer than 100 home
runs. He’s nowhere near Cabrera’s equal at the plate, but his baserunning
and defense are superior. That’s typically the case with WAR. Most basic
analysis is about hitting and gives lip service to the rest of the game. We
went over this again and against both times we fought over Mike Trout and
Cabrera.
Zobrist2009~2012的打擊率.270 全壘打少於100,很明顯和Cabrera沒得比。他只有跑壘
和守備優於Cabrera,然而這就是WAR試圖說明的棒球員除了攻擊以外其他方面的貢獻。
But it’s more than that for Zobrist, because he doesn’t have a loud
defensive game. He’s not making amazing plays in center or making throws
like Andrelton Simmons. Zobrist plays a bunch of positions and plays them
well. No one really argues that he’s a poor defender, but he’s not
considered outstanding, either.
It’s not so much that defense outweighs hitting in this example. It’s that
there’s a perception that a guy who plays all over the diamond cannot
possibly be good enough to be mentioned in the same breath as the game’s
premier slugger.
Even the skeptic can watch Ozzie Smith play defense and realize that it’s
possible for him to make up for his weaker bat. But the skeptic can’t see a
guy who doesn’t even have a permanent position as being capable of providing
that type of value.
Don’t blame the skeptic here. He’s a product of his culture and of the
language he was taught.
他的守備只能算不錯,他的例子也不是說明守備比攻擊更重要,Zobrist的亮點在於
他幾乎場上每個位置能守。
One certainly could make the case that Zobrist is underrated simply because he
’s a well-rounded player without one defining tool. That’s probably true to
some extent, but I’d contend that Zobrist is primarily underrated relative
to other such players because of his most impressive skill.
Ben Zobrist can play average or better defense at every position—with the
possible exception of catcher—and Joe Maddon makes the most of that
wonderful skill. During his career, Zobrist has played more than 4,000
innings at second base, more than 1,700 frames at shortstop, over 2,000
innings in right field, and about 500 innings apiece among left field, center
field, first base, and third base.
Zobrist isn’t underrated because he’s a good-at-everything,
great-at-nothing player. Zobrist is underrated because pretty much every
player in baseball who is asked to play four or five positions during the
course of a season qualifies as a backup.
Just look at this list of players who played 50 or more innings at three
different positions in 2013:
Ben Zobrist二壘守超過4000局、游擊超過1700局、右外野超過2000局、左中外野一壘三壘
加起來超過500局。Ben Zobrist被低估不是因為他是全能守位的野手,而是在我們的觀念
之中,流浪在各個守位的野手不就是個替補嗎。
以下是2013年在超過三個守位守超過50局的野手:
Player WAR Played LF/CF/RF Only
Ben Zobrist 5.4
Chris Denorfia 3.9 X
Bryce Harper 3.8 X
Andre Ethier 2.9 X
Allen Craig 2.5
Mark Trumbo 2.5
Martin Prado 2.4
Josh Hamilton 2.0 X
Brandon Moss 1.9
Daniel Nava 1.8
Nick Punto 1.8
Curtis Granderson 1.4 X
Kelly Johnson 1.2
Rajai Davis 1.2 X
Michael Saunders 1.2 X
Ichiro Suzuki 1.1 X
Shane Robinson 0.9 X
Jordan Schafer 0.9 X
Charlie Blackmon 0.8 X
Eric Young 0.7 X
Ed Lucas 0.7
Jeff Bianchi 0.7
Emilio Bonifacio 0.6
Dustin Ackley 0.6
Joaquin Arias 0.6
Willie Bloomquist 0.5
Chris Young 0.5 X
Justin Turner 0.5
Jeff Baker 0.4
Clete Thomas 0.4 X
Ramiro Pena 0.4
Kyle Blanks 0.3
Mike Aviles 0.3
Ramon Santiago 0.2
Freddy Galvis 0.1
Wilkin Ramirez 0.1 X
Darin Ruf 0.1
Mark DeRosa 0.1
Don Kelly 0.0
Logan Forsythe 0.0
Alex Presley -0.1 X
Trevor Crowe -0.1 X
Logan Schafer -0.1 X
Collin Cowgill -0.2 X
Sam Fuld -0.3 X
Daniel Descalso -0.3
Chris Coghlan -0.5 X
Roger Bernadina -0.6 X
Alexi Amarista -0.8
Skip Schumaker -1.0
Jerry Hairston -1.3
Michael Morse -1.5
Jeff Keppinger -1.5
Maicer Izturis -2.2
It’s Zobrist and mostly a bunch of guys you might find on the waiver wire.
There are a few other good players in there, but almost every player who is
asked to move around the diamond is something less than a solid regular, and
this list counts left field and right field as different positions.
Of the 54 players on this list, 22 of them only played the three different
outfield spots, and you have to get down to Martin Prado at 2.4 WAR before
you find a player whom you might consider a “utility” guy. The average WAR
of the group, including Zobrist, is 0.7.
The fact that Zobrist moves around must mean he isn’t good enough to hold
down one position, right?
和Zobrist排在一起的是一票讓渡名單水準的野手,這份名單已經將左外和右外視為不同
守位,54人中有22人只是在三個外野守位輪流守。而我們從Zobrist一路往下看到Martin
Prado才讓我們感覺到這是個工具人。這群人的WAR平均是0.7,而Zobrist是5.4。
This belief is what I call the “Zobrist Fallacy.” It’s perfectly
understandable, as an automatic response, to see a player rotating around the
field during the course of the season and assume he’s the team’s 10th man.
He’s the best substitute, so he plays whatever position is open due to
injuries or days off. This is how players like Don Kelly make their living.
Our conception of a utility player is someone who is good enough defensively
to handle multiple positions but not good enough offensively to start at any
of them. They’re useful because you can usually avoid carrying extra bench
players for emergencies and can replace them with guys who are valuable pinch
hitters or platoon bats.
我們對工具人的印象就是守備足夠勝任多重守位,但攻擊不足站穩先發。
Plenty of major leaguers fit this description. They’re guys you like having
around, and their role calls on them to play a variety of positions over the
course of a season. They’re baseball duct tape. But we get lost with players
like Zobrist because he is capable of that kind of versatility while also
featuring a well-above-average bat. He breaks the mold a little.
我們存有這種觀念就會忽略Zobrist這種超級工具人。
In baseball, defensive flexibility is something you learn when your bat won’
t keep you in the lineup. It’s a matter of survival for many players rather
than true cause and effect. Guys who can play multiple positions aren’t
inherently bad, but most of them learn to play multiple positions because it’
s the only way they can be good enough.
Which bring us to Zobrist. Zobrist’s bat is good enough to start anywhere.
His 126 wRC+ since 2009 would be well above average anywhere on the diamond.
The baseball instruction manual tells us to put players at the best defensive
position they can handle if their bats are good enough to be in the lineup at
all. If Miguel Cabrera could play shortstop well, he’d be a shortstop.
在攻擊優先的棒球觀念中,工具人不是不夠好,這是他們唯一能生存的辦法。但Zobrist
證明他不管守哪個位子火力都足以擔任先發。自2009年起他的wRC+是126。
From a value perspective, this makes sense in the abstract. This isn’t one
of those silly baseball traditions that won’t die. You want a player to
provide as much value as possible and he will do so by playing his innings at
the most difficult possible defensive position. Anyone who doesn’t do that
isn’t maximizing his value.
The immediate realization, however, is that teams have to fill out an entire
lineup, so a team with Troy Tulowitzki and Andrelton Simmons couldn’t have
two players at short. One would move to third or second or center field. You
wouldn’t be maximizing Tulowitzki’s value if you put him at third, but he
could handle third just fine, and it would help the team overall.
So people don’t knock Zobrist simply because he doesn’t play shortstop when
the Rays have a better defensive shortstop on the roster. They knock him
because it appears as if the team has a better shortstop, second baseman, and
right fielder on the roster, and Zobrist is just finding his way into the
lineup by plugging whichever hole is open that day. And that’s simply not
true.
由於棒球守備位置的關係,各守位火力最大化一直都是教練最煩惱的問題,Zobrist這種
不管守哪火力都可以最大化的球員是稀有且珍貴的。
Zobrist is one of the Rays’ stars. Maddon builds the lineup around him.
Zobrist is a utility player because he’s special, not because he needs to do
it to survive. If you take the time to really think about it, you know that
Zobrist isn’t the Rays 10th-best player. But the fact that you associate his
most recognizable skill with guys who can barely stay above replacement level
leads you to psychologically undervalue him when comparing him to the game’s
best players.
Only a couple of players have been more productive major league players
during the last six seasons, but if you tell people Zobrist is a star and WAR
thinks he’s great, there’s pushback.
And that pushback is all in our heads. If you think about it dispassionately,
you know that a player with a 126 wRC+ who plays good defense and gets 600 or
more plate appearances is crazy valuable whether he plays right field or
shortstop. There’s a difference between those two, maybe around a win, but
both are All-Star type players or better. But when we see it with our own
eyes, it’s tough to break the well-ingrained conditioning. Great players don
’t move around the diamond. They just don’t.
Zobrist對光芒隊的重要性不言可喻 Maddon可以用他隨意安排打線。
WAR說Zobrist是明星球員但我們不相信,因為明星球員不可能到處換守位。
There’s a very human origin and baseball origin to this way of thinking.
From a simple perspective, it’s hard to switch between multiple positions
and play them well. We’re pretty confident as analysts that a good shortstop
could become a good outfielder, but asking a young player to learn both at
the major league level and switch between the two at a moment’s notice is
hard. The outfield isn’t harder than shortstop, but it’s absolutely a
challenge no matter how talented the player may be. It takes time to master a
position.
It makes sense that you wouldn’t want to bring a talented hitter up and
bounce him around the diamond. It would take his energy away from learning to
hit a big-league slider, and it might make him worse at both positions. In
other words, the actual development of versatility is challenging. That’s
problem one.
我們都相信一個好的游擊手也能成為好的外野手,但若要一個年輕選手學習兩個以上
大聯盟等級的守備位置是很困難的。沒人會要求潛力股以學習多重守位為目標。這可能
會影響他在打擊方面的發展。
Problem two is a product of problem one. In baseball, we develop and scout
talent without much concern for need at the major league level. If you have
to pick a position for a player, you pick it when he’s first coming up, and
you move him off the position when he proves he can’t handle it or the team
runs into a road block in the big leagues. Since it’s difficult to play
multiple positions, you find positions for your top prospects to succeed, and
you develop them there.
Essentially, you scout players based on the most difficult position they can
handle. If you’re watching a 20-year-old kid at Double-A with the potential
to hit 30 home runs with some decent on-base skill, you care about getting
him to the big leagues. If he can play third, he’ll play third. If he can’t
play third, he’ll learn left. His bat is getting him to the show, and his
glove is just keeping him from slowing that down.
On the other side, if you’re watching a superlative defender, you’re not
going to move him off the position and try others, because his presence at
that position is why you want hiem at all. Simmons didn’t get to Atlanta
because he was setting the world on fire at the plate. He got there because
of the runs he can save on defense.
You only shift to honing the utility craft when either of those avenues fail.
If you aren’t good enough to hit in the big leagues, you might be good
enough to fill a bench role, but that requires that you can cover a few
positions. Or if your bat is okay, but your defense isn’t good enough for
you to start at a premium defensive position, you might find yourself unable
to break in as a starter at an offense-first position.
At the development stage, you become a utility player when becoming a starter
fails. In talking with a few people who cover the player development world,
that’s the message that comes through. Utility players, or guys who play all
over the diamond, do so because they didn’t project as someone who could
play every day at the MLB level.
球探在看新秀時,也是先看棒子。球員本來守哪就守哪,如果棒子可以上大聯盟;本來
是個三壘手那就守三壘,三壘不行就左外。總是以棒子優先。能守甚麼位置不是優先考量
靠守備上大聯盟的人代表他們在棒子競爭中輸了。
When I asked our Marc Hulet what he means when he uses the term “utility
player” in a scouting report, he said that it means the player’s “
offensive skills project as replacement level or worse, but that they’re
athletic enough to handle multiple positions.”
Another FanGraphs and Hardball Times contributor, Nathaniel Stoltz, told me
that utility players “have interesting skills, and they don’t have a fatal
flaw that would leave them totally helpless in the bigs, but they don’t fall
neatly into any position on the field in terms of their skill set. One
prerequisite for a utility tag, of course, is the player’s ability (or
projected ability) to man several positions. In most instances, that includes
at least one up-the-middle spot (seems like [four-corner] types are pretty
rare nowadays).”
Stoltz went on to say that a utility guy is “either deficient enough on one
side of the ball to give you pause running him out there every day, or he’s
just fairly bland all-around and, therefore, doesn’t seem like the sort of
guy worth going out of your way to write into the lineup card regularly.”
Mark Anderson, who writes for Baseball Prospectus and TigsTown, puts it like
this: “Utility players have an MLB tool that holds them at the level, or the
collection of their tools warrants more than an org player projection…in
Tigers terms, think Ramon Santiago’s peak (glove as the carrying tool) or
Shane Halter (never embarrassed himself in any capacity at his peak),
respectively.”
Built into all of these characterizations is the idea that utility players
are good enough to be useful members of a 25-man roster but not good enough
that you would want them to start for your team. This won’t come as a shock
to anyone, but seeing their descriptions is important. When you call someone
a utility player, or project they have a utility future, you’re
acknowledging a lack of potential.
There are many players in professional baseball who fit this description. They
’re common, and we’re very aware of their existence. Just go back up and
look at that list. We have a good grasp on what it means to be a utility
player. Given that there are countless examples, we end up developing a very
fixed relationship between players who play multiple positions and players
who aren’t great by major league standards. It’s almost a perfect
relationship, truth be told.
If you take the time to really sit down and think, you know this isn’t a
guarantee. But as your subtle opinions develop and the lack of
counterexamples emerge, your brain accepts this conventional wisdom.
這裡是一些人對工具人的看法 大概就是"攻擊能力在讓渡球員水準,但運動能力可以負擔
多守位" "沒有致命缺點讓他們在面對大聯盟對手時顯得無助,但能力不足以先發"
大概就是工具人能力足夠擺在25人名單內,但不用抱太多期望。一般人對工具人的聯想
就是"潛力不足"。
Which brings us back to Zobrist. Over the last six years, he ranks second in
WAR, and even if you use WAR as a general guide, he’s easily been one of the
ten best position players in the game during that time. He has a well
above-average bat. He runs the bases very well. He’s an extremely valuable
defender. Zobrist isn’t just a good player who stands above other players
who play multiple positions; he stands above just about everyone.
Zobrist is versatile. He’s not a utility player by the common meaning of the
word. He has everything you need to be a major league starter at any position
and the added ability to handle many positions at a moment’s notice.
Sixty qualified players have posted a 120 wRC+ or better since 2009. Zobrist
ranks seventh in BsR (base running runs) among them and first in DEF
(fielding and positional runs). Think Chase Utley and Evan Longoria as
comparables.
Zobrist絕對不是潛力不足,他打擊很行,跑壘很行,守備很行,守哪都很行,他具有
所有成為大聯盟先發球員的條件,從打擊、跑壘、守備方面拿他和Evan Longoria、
Chase Utley比較的話...
BEN ZOBRIST COMPARABLES
Name PA wRC+ Bsr Off Def WAR
Ben Zobrist 3869 126 16.3 133.7 70.1 34.7
Evan Longoria 3533 131 6.8 135.0 67.4 33.4
Chase Utley 3133 123 26.5 113.0 57.1 27.9
Utley and Longoria are underrated in their own right for providing a lot of
value in aspects of the game other than at the plate, but imagine taking one
of those players and being able to use him at every position.
Which leads us to one final question: Why is versatility so valuable? If we
put Zobrist at shortstop or second base and let him play, he’d still be
plenty valuable. Baseball dorks would still consider him one of the best
dozen players over the last few seasons. Right? Yes, but it’s more than that.
Zobrist’s versatility makes the Rays better because he gives them the option
to run any number of rotating platoons across multiple positions. He’s a
switch hitter who can play basically every position. The Rays can gather
their best nine hitters for any given matchup, and the fact that they have
Zobrist and his versatility allows them to be less concerned about needing
the other eight to cover a specific set of positions.
It’s also a huge benefit when dealing with injuries. The Rays almost always
can replace an injured player with their next-best player because Zobrist can
shift positions to accommodate. He’s the best insurance policy money can buy.
從比較表可以看出Zobrist的價值。他也增加光芒調度的靈活性。
I’ve always had a fascination with versatility in baseball. When you’re in
little league, you’re either the kid who wants to play shortstop or you’re
the kid who tells the coach you’ll play anywhere. I was the latter. There
aren’t really any other players like Zobrist right now, or at least any
players who have done what he does for an extended period of time.
Chone Figgins comes to mind, but he had only two high-quality offensive
seasons. In 2013, Prado is about the closest thing we have, and he’s an
average major league rather than a down-ballot MVP.
Our conception of utility players leads us to relay a utility tag onto
players who play all over the diamond. As a result, we think less of those
guys who play multiple positions than we probably should, even if they’re
much better than a 25th man. Most of the time, that doesn’t have serious
consequences. In Zobrist’s case, though, it leads us to miss a star and
question a method of player evaluation (WAR), because it doesn’t feel like
Zobrist should be so well regarded.
Versatility should be celebrated. It’s a valuable skill we don’t properly
appreciate because the number of players who use versatility to move from
good to great is tiny compared to the number of players who use it to move
from career minor leaguer to bench player.
Looking down on versatile players is like looking down on buffets just
because buffets typically don’t offer high-quality food. But buffets could
offer high quality good. Some rare ones do. That’s Ben Zobrist. He has all
of the skills you need to succeed at any major league position and the
ability to play almost any of them.
Zobrist isn’t the reason WAR is flawed; he’s the reason it’s important. If
not for the existence WAR, even more people would undervalue one of the best
players of the last several years. Zobrist would be a great player if he were
anchored to second base, but the fact that he’s not makes him even more
valuable to the Rays despite the fact that though our brains have been
programmed to think otherwise.
這就凸顯了多功能性的重要性了,我們過去認為多功能性就是什麼都會一點,什麼都不精
這明顯地低估了Zobrist。我們覺得buffets就是什麼都有,但都不怎麼樣。事實上也有
高級的buffets;什麼都有,什麼都好。Zobrist的存在不是證明WAR有缺陷;相反的,
他證明為何WAR很重要,如果沒有WAR我們很可能低估了一個過去幾年最好的棒球選手。
作者: brockqq ( )   2014-11-13 17:11:00
為什麼這篇感覺有點拿對Zobrist的數字來說@@~08年Zobrist爆發 war 8.5 可是其他年份他並沒有辦法表現的那麼好...@@
作者: cktonthuls (止兀)   2014-11-13 17:14:00
這篇文的數據都沒有08的啊,這樣算很不錯了吧
作者: acura123 (acura123)   2014-11-13 17:15:00
讚 好感動
作者: brockqq ( )   2014-11-13 17:15:00
阿 是我打錯 是09他爆發 war 8.5
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-13 17:21:00
就算09年特別高 其他幾年都還是在5非常高的數字
作者: Lucroy (盧克羅伊)   2014-11-13 17:22:00
算新觀念~但怎麼有種業配fu XD
作者: brockqq ( )   2014-11-13 17:23:00
我沒說他不好XD 只是覺得為什麼專挑09~13這個年分畢竟他的war就算不單挑那幾個年分也是很棒XD!
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2014-11-13 17:25:00
他09年開始才變成先發等級出賽數 之前不看很正常
作者: notmuchmoney (真的不錯....)   2014-11-13 17:28:00
結果V-Mart會不會就拿MVP來打臉 不用守備就MVP
作者: bgp915117 (Utley)   2014-11-13 17:29:00
MVP跟這沒關係啊
作者: JakeMcGee (Jake McGee)   2014-11-13 17:40:00
可惜他打擊也開始衰退了 Zoby是我光的中流砥柱阿
作者: tony123839 (~tony~)   2014-11-13 17:55:00
就真的還好阿 跟他是工具人沒關係
作者: Zhang274 (鮪魚)   2014-11-13 17:56:00
zoby 真的穩穩地!而且好像每個棒次都可以打!
作者: Greay (McGreaY)   2014-11-13 18:13:00
超級工具人
作者: Guerrieri (Taylor)   2014-11-13 18:14:00
業配文XD 但是真的很喜歡Zoby
作者: Lasvegas (Roy)   2014-11-13 18:16:00
好文推!
作者: ray1286 (LEOray)   2014-11-13 18:30:00
余德龍:人家也可以
作者: jardon (綜合水果汁武士)   2014-11-13 18:36:00
非典型明星
作者: saiulbb (Becky♪#是我的拉!)   2014-11-13 18:41:00
Zoby超神!
作者: bestteam (wombat是胖胖熊)   2014-11-13 18:41:00
他很棒啊 但如果有GM用2000萬簽他一定會被罵死
作者: geneaven (geneaven)   2014-11-13 18:51:00
如果是有錢的球團應該會叫他固定守位
作者: jet113102 (傳說中的Yi)   2014-11-13 18:52:00
Zoby是我電玩裡面的愛將!! 超級好用!!
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-13 18:58:00
Zoby強的地方除了可以維持在115左右的OPS+以外 他守所有位置的守備都有一定水準
作者: yankees733   2014-11-13 19:06:00
Zoby工具人還不錯
作者: Zamned (Как дела?)   2014-11-13 19:19:00
應該是要討論 光芒為什麼一直讓他持續在複數個守位出賽養新人?補洞?還是單純球員喜歡到處跑?
作者: TokyoHard (東京難)   2014-11-13 19:24:00
樓上你看了這篇為甚麼還會問這個問題?
作者: Zamned (Как дела?)   2014-11-13 19:29:00
我的意思是通常打出名堂的球員會傾向於固定守位
作者: tsukasa107 (悫號:)   2014-11-13 19:29:00
在OOTP裡超強的
作者: bztfir (恩恩呵呵)   2014-11-13 19:30:00
調度可以比較靈活吧
作者: wolf0531   2014-11-13 19:30:00
ZOBY真的超好用的 而且能夠很穩定的做出供獻
作者: Zamned (Как дела?)   2014-11-13 19:31:00
Ben Zobrist為什麼要選擇當萬用插頭?
作者: SamFuld (山佛)   2014-11-13 19:38:00
因為Maddon也很喜歡依照左右投來排打線Zoby則是都會在場上的那個人
作者: TokyoHard (東京難)   2014-11-13 19:39:00
他兩打啊XD
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-13 19:40:00
對小市場球隊來說 這種球員可以讓調度更有彈性提供了很多位置platoon的選擇
作者: TokyoHard (東京難)   2014-11-13 19:41:00
其實不只小市場,現在的NYY能有他也絕對加分你有鬼牌,幹嗎一定要拿來當A
作者: xw668 (窪塚不良介)   2014-11-13 19:50:00
而且他選球能力也很好 可以說是無可挑剔的好球員說他還好的人 真是笑話
作者: Werth (鬍某)   2014-11-13 19:57:00
守位不固定可能會影響打擊狀況 不確定Zoby是不是沒差
作者: EEERRIICC (大尾魯蛇)   2014-11-13 19:58:00
fb年年放掉的球員
作者: Werth (鬍某)   2014-11-13 19:58:00
如果離開光芒 也許Zoby這種身分就會少見了
作者: chen18 (chen)   2014-11-13 20:00:00
光芒最愛球員之一 大推Zoby
作者: au3rupy3 ( 0 0)   2014-11-13 20:13:00
希望明年老闆可以出錢留他QQ
作者: cl3bp6 (來自97號世界)   2014-11-13 20:23:00
美國余德龍
作者: aeiou335 (tbrdet)   2014-11-13 20:54:00
希望不要被交易
作者: jet113102 (傳說中的Yi)   2014-11-13 21:02:00
其實我非常好奇如果Zoby進FA試水溫會拿到什麼樣的offer
作者: Serphim   2014-11-13 21:04:00
乖乖當2B才是王道 當2B他的棒子可以排前幾名當OF的話就排到三十幾名了
作者: ufokid (飛碟小子)   2014-11-13 21:06:00
不能這樣排啊 那他當工具人是MLB第一耶
作者: Sebastian   2014-11-13 21:13:00
怎麼沒當C過??
作者: Serphim   2014-11-13 21:24:00
替補第一名也是第一呀
作者: Atropos0723 (Atropos)   2014-11-13 21:25:00
重點是他可以提供打線靈活調度的彈性,而且他不管到哪個位置,對那個位置來說都是加分因為現代棒球越來越重視輪休這件事,所以他這種超級人的存在可以提供很大的便利,也增大左右打輪值可能
作者: Serphim   2014-11-13 21:30:00
那當他一直去輪其他位置時 去哪找棒子跟他差不多的其他2B
作者: ufokid (飛碟小子)   2014-11-13 21:32:00
那個補他位置的2B只要比他補的那個人強就算增強打線了啊
作者: Atropos0723 (Atropos)   2014-11-13 21:32:00
因為輪休啊。沒有他,那輪休就得用打擊真的不太好的工具人
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-13 21:41:00
這種就是哪裡有洞就填哪的 過去有Figgins和Freel(RIPZoby算是他們的升級版
作者: Serphim   2014-11-13 21:42:00
找一個打擊還可以的4號OF 比找還可以的替補2B容易多了
作者: Asucks (我的老婆是超人)   2014-11-13 21:42:00
Zoby打電動超好用
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-13 21:43:00
話不能這樣說啊= = 每隻球隊隊形不同紅襪想要打擊還可以的4th OF還找不到勒
作者: TokyoHard (東京難)   2014-11-13 21:43:00
一直打擊打擊,都不用考慮守備的喔XD
作者: TokyoHard (東京難)   2014-11-13 21:44:00
你想講的他的運用結果就告訴你了,2B是守最多沒錯
作者: Serphim   2014-11-13 21:55:00
所以啦 現在這個時代OF的人才比2B的人才多很多
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-13 21:59:00
重點還是隊形啊....今天Zoby如果在紅襪他就會守很多外野了......
作者: SlamKai (Calm Violence)   2014-11-13 22:03:00
超級工具人
作者: Werth (鬍某)   2014-11-13 22:05:00
如果在國民就固定2B 多守位的價值在每隊會不同
作者: ps20012001 (開始想明年新計畫)   2014-11-13 22:08:00
在西瓜手底下才能這樣一路玩到底 換個總仔還會這樣用?
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-13 22:10:00
紅襪有個人叫Brock Holt
作者: lovebulls (love46&51)   2014-11-13 22:10:00
還是要看隊形阿 舉今年的例子的話 對方右投手先發
作者: lovebulls (love46&51)   2014-11-13 22:11:00
光芒會左外Joyce 2B Zobrist 對方左投先發 Zobrist調到
作者: Fuu ( 每天都是種練習)   2014-11-13 22:12:00
mark derosa算是這類的球員嗎?
作者: lovebulls (love46&51)   2014-11-13 22:12:00
外野 Forsythe先發2B這樣
作者: immortalqq (大牛)   2014-11-13 22:14:00
不是西瓜愛這樣用他 而是你隊上有這種超級工具人 你不會這樣用嗎? 極速大提到了超好的例子 Holt XD
作者: Zamned (Как дела?)   2014-11-13 22:16:00
DeRosa就是工具人啊
作者: lovebulls (love46&51)   2014-11-13 22:17:00
隊上某些球被左殺或右殺而且守位又沒剛好互補的話 Zoby
作者: ps20012001 (開始想明年新計畫)   2014-11-13 22:17:00
說實在..他能到國民的話..一定專職2B
作者: Zamned (Как дела?)   2014-11-13 22:18:00
DeRosa已經算是不錯的工具人了 守備打擊長打都在平均左右。但Ben Zobrist更上一大層
作者: ps20012001 (開始想明年新計畫)   2014-11-13 22:19:00
推一下 maxspeed150大 對選擇不多的球隊 增加超多彈性
作者: dean5566 (yagami)   2014-11-13 22:19:00
BZ必推 光芒迷站出來啊
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-13 22:22:00
如果有隻球隊3B/SS/三個OF/4th OF都是All-star那Zoby固定二壘會是個好主意只是這種球隊你要去哪生
作者: CraigHansen (紅襪迷)   2014-11-13 22:24:00
沒辦法知道他如果固定二壘是不是可以讓打擊成績更好
作者: Fuu ( 每天都是種練習)   2014-11-13 22:25:00
Derosa有段時期很猛但跟Zoby還是差了點XD
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-13 22:31:00
Holt與其說是超猛工具人 不如說他是紅襪今年能守3B/SS/CF/RF中少數打得到球的吧
作者: pujos (lks)   2014-11-13 22:34:00
有沒有人想過。固定守位他會更好OPS+115的確是個好打者。但調動是不是真的沒有影響
作者: Dimitre (迪米崔)   2014-11-13 22:37:00
DeRosa好懷念阿 雖然也是超級工具人不過他守備只能說普通
作者: pujos (lks)   2014-11-13 22:37:00
如果他原來是個OPS+130-140的type。那多守位115是賺是賠?
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-13 22:42:00
這問題很難講 OPS+130~140的corner OF vs. OPS+115的MI 哪個較有價值?
作者: pujos (lks)   2014-11-13 22:47:00
或者他是能在2B站上130啊。我真不懂調動這種球員的意義固定守位。哪怕只是個120的MI。都比現在好啊
作者: ZachGreinke (40週年)   2014-11-13 22:50:00
意義就是他站哪都有價值在隊上也無人可取代
作者: CraigHansen (紅襪迷)   2014-11-13 22:56:00
光芒需要這樣的彈性 會不會影響只有球員自己才知道了
作者: pujos (lks)   2014-11-13 22:57:00
你把龍哥這樣移我想也不黑!會差115多少啦。。。y如果這招真的那麼有價值的話
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-13 22:59:00
當你一個打線中有一半的人需要platoon時價值就顯現了至於為什麼只能組出這樣的打線...沒錢、沒農場、換不到好東西 etc.龍哥不會守OF也不會守2B啊 談論移不移他幹嘛
作者: KAIS   2014-11-13 23:01:00
如果你的2B被左殺,RF被右殺,有Zoby在隊上你會不讓他到處跑
作者: wakuwaku (倒立喝汽水)   2014-11-13 23:02:00
TB是RF被左殺2B被右殺吧
作者: pujos (lks)   2014-11-13 23:03:00
不會.往上翻會這樣搞球員的人應該是極少數
作者: KAIS   2014-11-13 23:03:00
光芒和綠帽都愛用platoon system,有超級工具人會很好調度至於為何用platoon system,因為需要被platoon的球員比較便宜
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-13 23:04:00
Marco Scutaro生涯初期也是這種角色
作者: pujos (lks)   2014-11-13 23:04:00
今天是Zoby被搞了之後還有115你才覺得有“價值“
作者: Werth (鬍某)   2014-11-13 23:04:00
不必懷疑超級工具人的價值 但不是每一隊都能這樣玩就是了
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-13 23:05:00
超級工具人是球隊找不到人時不得不為的手段
作者: pujos (lks)   2014-11-13 23:05:00
這跟論證!這種使用方式是有價值的是兩回事
作者: sam9595 (帕帕)   2014-11-13 23:06:00
沒有人能保證他固定守位就會打比較好,目前都只是你一廂情願的猜測
作者: TokyoHard (東京難)   2014-11-13 23:06:00
固定守位就能打更好是哪夢來的
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-13 23:06:00
然後Zoby是打過OPS+13x的工具人唷 還是你硬要說他如果解除限制的話能打15x
作者: pujos (lks)   2014-11-13 23:08:00
固定守位會打比較好算猜測?那整個聯盟固守的都是白痴嗎固守的球員隨便算上百個而已
作者: Werth (鬍某)   2014-11-13 23:09:00
有沒有影響是看人的 我前面提到這點 也是有所保留
作者: KAIS   2014-11-13 23:09:00
就算Zoby固定守位會打更好也不見得抵得掉另一個被左/右殺的位子在攻擊面的損失
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-13 23:16:00
會固定守位就是因為他不適合變守位啊...例如他換個守備位置防守就開始落漆有些人能守好一個位置就謝天謝地了如果像Zoby這樣守哪裡像哪裡的守備天才 那當然有本錢換來換去....
作者: Serphim   2014-11-13 23:32:00
不能直接買個不被右殺的OF當替補嗎?
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-13 23:39:00
= =說買就買喔大聯盟水準的4th OF也不是想要就有的好嗎Johnny Gomes這種平均水準的球員出現在FA市場照樣搶守的理由有沒有想過?
作者: SULICon (監工小學徒(〞︶〝*))   2014-11-13 23:48:00
我也喜歡Zoby!
作者: Serphim   2014-11-13 23:50:00
為了讓他換來換去 還必須找個2B被左殺OF被右殺?不能把被左殺的2B拿去換打擊更好的被左殺OF?
作者: Sebastian   2014-11-13 23:57:00
固定守位跟打擊會有什麼關係? 可以少練習守多練習打?
作者: bgp915117 (Utley)   2014-11-13 23:57:00
..........
作者: TohnoMinagi (遠野)   2014-11-13 23:58:00
整串看完我還是不能理解固定守位為何可以提升打擊
作者: th11yh23 (腦沙拉手術)   2014-11-13 23:59:00
問題不就在 就算多20 ops+能對他WAR提升多少?小市場球隊願意為了那20ops+(還不一定有)犧牲多少彈性?
作者: sam9595 (帕帕)   2014-11-14 00:01:00
因果關係完全搞反,是因為有左殺右殺的問題才讓他支援,誰會無聊為了讓他可以換守位簽球員
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-14 00:07:00
.................................................就是隊形有缺陷才會這樣做啊如果內外野手陣容都很豪華 那當然沒有換來換去的必要連點platoon的概念都沒有嗎= =
作者: Serphim   2014-11-14 00:11:00
有一種更簡單又有效率的概念叫做 交易
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-14 00:11:00
以為交易標的要換就有嗎?是不是MVP打太多了?
作者: TokyoHard (東京難)   2014-11-14 00:12:00
不要讓鍵盤GM不開心
作者: Serphim   2014-11-14 00:13:00
不是一直在提2B被左殺嗎? 談到交易又把他忘了!
作者: maxspeed150 (聽說茉夏分手了)   2014-11-14 00:14:00
不是什麼事情都是隨便喊個交易就結束的如果換來的人的效益不如原本這樣配置 那這交易還做?
作者: asd778a (雞湯湯湯湯湯湯湯)   2014-11-14 00:56:00
...如果可以換GM會不想換嗎 有嚴重缺陷的人 你不想要嚴重缺陷得打者 自己不想用 對方就會想用嗎...
作者: kikielle (This song is over)   2014-11-14 01:49:00
老婆很正
作者: xw668 (窪塚不良介)   2014-11-14 01:54:00
我覺得有人很無言
作者: GamELisT (King for CYA!)   2014-11-14 02:04:00
只看過洋基吧,交易想要就有的喔,FA想簽就有的喔
作者: dw1012 (讚曰:寡言 )   2014-11-14 02:28:00
一個球員打不好 為什麼不買兩個好球員
作者: Phatmen (Keep viewing brightly)   2014-11-14 03:03:00
我看不懂"固定位置的話打擊會更好"這種需要水晶球才看的到的言論為什麼會講的這麼大聲別人的工具人是自殺棒 Zoby是比聯盟平均好一截的打者光這一點就贏太多了吧
作者: BenZobrist (工具人)   2014-11-14 03:36:00
有意見嗎
作者: th11yh23 (腦沙拉手術)   2014-11-14 03:50:00
樓上明天不用打日本人嗎 早點睡啊
作者: s6525480   2014-11-14 05:04:00
來看看能拿多少薪水就知道了問題是打的出來的球員 會選擇去隊型有問題的小市場球隊當個奇才嗎?
作者: bluegates (藍門)   2014-11-14 05:05:00
天啊...max大辛苦了
作者: genie2 (新挑戰)   2014-11-14 06:40:00
這篇寫得很好,借轉 Rays 版其實 Zoby 和 西瓜 Maddon 真的是良馬和伯樂的關係沒有西瓜登那些神奇的調度和 match up,也沒有辦法把 zoby多守位的價值展現到這種程度…仔細看 Rays 打球的方法就會發現他們跟大聯盟剩下29隊都不太一樣(雖然說窮也是主因,但同樣窮的運動家,或很小氣的馬林魚也不是這麼打球)只能說 Maddon 只有一個,zoby 也只有一個,兩人相遇的火花是球迷的幸運,知道原來球隊可以這麼樣玩!
作者: carrhung (酋不短)   2014-11-14 07:00:00
推Zoby!
作者: JayReed (平心靜氣在網路上學習)   2014-11-14 09:15:00
超強
作者: Zamned (Как дела?)   2014-11-14 09:22:00
西瓜可能是大聯盟現役唯一會讓終結者出來終結第八局的總仔
作者: ancientmoon (妖姬西打龍)   2014-11-14 11:57:00
我一直覺得很多人低估Zoby,他真的很強,終於平反
作者: newest (C'est la vie~)   2014-11-14 12:28:00
西瓜創造了zoby可以發揮價值的最大空間
作者: catsondbs (貓仔)   2014-11-14 12:37:00
原來是因為Zoby才特意找來"被右殺2B跟被左殺OF" (筆記)至於固定守位會不會幫助打擊 誰也不知道 可能是對的但西瓜也沒有餘力能測試一下 他只是就陣容來說排出最強的打線 拿util來補洞 Zoby有沒有被影響到不是他的考量守備會影響打擊看到Pat Burrell之後我也不得不信了....
作者: gn01370926 (三重肥肉東條希)   2014-11-14 13:57:00
zoby ~~~ 可惜西瓜不在了 .....
作者: krizarlid (Let's Go Cubs !)   2014-11-14 16:11:00
zoby!!! FB愛將 最強萬用工具人!!!
作者: Phatmen (Keep viewing brightly)   2014-11-14 16:50:00
劃錯重點的不要來酸好嗎
作者: xw668 (窪塚不良介)   2014-11-14 18:32:00
那位真的很讓人無言
作者: mikachen   2014-11-14 18:52:00
也就是說Zoby是催生"西瓜"這暱稱的原因之一
作者: japan428 (牽著妳走 :D)   2014-11-14 21:11:00
Zoby玩遊戲也很好用阿 鍵盤總仔表示:便宜的強打SS
作者: cyscys (Boston Ouskast)   2014-11-16 11:09:00
可借分享Facebook嗎?
作者: WingedHussar (寂寞哥)   2014-11-16 11:14:00
大略翻譯一下而已 隨意分享
作者: TSbb (貸款三十年債開始)   2014-11-17 03:21:00
推genie2

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