HBO籃球作家Bill Simmons在2/1號的時候訪問了前公牛總教練Tom Thibodeau。
(連結：https://goo.gl/)
在長達一小時的訪問中，Simmons問到了Thibs對於勇士隊的看法。節錄如下：
(11:10)
Bill:
Is it fair to say that Draymond is like the ultimate Thib’s player, like the
one guy in the league you would’ve loved coaching the most?
Draymond會是你心目中最理想最能體現你理念的球員，這樣說公不公平？他應該是聯盟裡
你最希望能教導的球員吧？
Tom:
Well, you know the, I’d say this; it’s like any coach would love. And yeah
I think if you went back to you know, Michigan State, and you can tell his
relationship with Tom Izzo and the way Michigan State won when they were
there and then he gets to go to Golden State and his relationship with the
coaches there and his teammates and the way he just has got so much better. He
’d be a great fit on any team and in any system. And he’s probably the most
unique player in the league because he can play multiple positions, including
the center position, and when they go small at the end and he goes to the
center position. Most teams, I would say all the teams that do that, they
sacrifice their defence and rebounding. And when Golden State does it with
Draymond going to the center position and Andre Iguodala going to the power
forward position, they sacrifice no defence and no rebounding. And they are
incredibly dangerous in transition because they all can bust out with it and
put enormous pressure on your defensive transition.
恩，你知道，我會這樣說；任何教練都會希望能教他。而且如果你回頭看密西根州大學，
你可以看到他和 Tom Izzo (他大學教練) 的關係，看他們贏球的方式，然後他到了勇士
隊後，他和教練以及隊友的關係，以及他能進步這麼多的方式。這樣的他能很好的幫助任
何對伍或是任何體系。更何況他應該是聯盟裡最獨特的球員，因為他能打各種位置，包刮
中鋒，當他們在比賽尾聲擺上小陣容的時候他便移到中鋒。大部分的隊伍，我敢說全部的
隊伍，一旦開始用小陣容，他們便犧牲掉了防守和籃板。而當勇士隊擺上小陣容，並且讓
Draymond打中鋒，Andre Iguodala 打大前鋒，他們一丁點防守和籃板都沒有被犧牲。反
之，他們在攻防轉換的時候變得具有無比的威脅性，因為他們能全力衝刺，對你轉換間的
防守造成極大的壓力。
Bill:
So it seems like the biggest mistake teams are making in this season is
trying to replicate what Golden State is doing because they feel like that’s
the only way they’re gonna beat them, and yet, I’ve made this point on a
couple podcasts before but, you have Curry who’s the greatest shooter of all
time and one of the best offensive players of all time, you have Klay
Thompson who’s the second best shooter in the league right now. So they
have, just by sheer fluke, the two best shooters in the league on a 30-team
league. And on top of that, they have the only guy in the league who can play
the 5 when he’s really a stretch 4 or whatever the hell Draymond is, I don’
t even think he has a position. And then Iguodala can play power forward and
as you said they don’t sacrifice defense, why are people trying to replicate
something that’s impossible to replicate?
所以現在看起來很多隊伍在這季犯下最大的錯誤便是想複製勇士隊的隊形，因為他們覺得
這是他們能擊敗他的唯一方法，但是，我在幾個之前的廣播節目也有提到，勇士隊有
Curry，史上最偉大的射手也是史上最強的進攻球員之一，又有Klay Thompson ，目前聯
盟第二好的射手。所以他們莫名其妙就在這個有三十支隊伍的聯盟裡有了兩個最好的射手
。更扯的是，他們有聯盟唯一能打五號位的延伸四號(Stretch 4)，其實我也搞不清楚到
底Draymond是什麼鬼，我覺得他任何位置都能打。而Iguodala可以打大前鋒，然後就像你
說的，他們沒有犧牲掉防守，為什麼大家還想要複製根本無法複製的東西？
Tom:
Well and that’s a great point. I guess in our league, you know they always
say like in the NFL, the team that wins it, copycat league. In some cases, I
think that holds true in the NBA as well. And that’s what I love about the
way Pop coaches. You know I think Pop, if you look at his career, you know
every year he’s played to the strengths of this team, and he’s covered up
his weaknesses. And if you went way back to the beginning with Robinson and
Duncan, that was very much a power team and played great defence and they
pounded you, and then when David Robinson retired, they went to more of a
pace, push, emphasizing the strength of Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, and of
course getting Diaw, a stretch 4, and they shot more 3’s and opened up the
game. And now the acquisition of Lamarcus Aldridge and David West,
emphasizing the strength of Kawhi Leonard, they’ve become more of a post-up,
shooting less 3’s, but still highly efficient offensively and playing
unbelievable individual and team defence. And they’re trying to do it their
way, they feel that that’s their best chance of having the ultimate success.
So I think that’s what good teams do, like they look at the strengths and
weaknesses of their team, and they try to play that way. I think the whole
trick is to move forward to being efficient and, you know, obviously to be a
top 5 offensive and defensive team, to be in the top 5 with your rebounding,
and then you look at the scoring margin, to me those are the markers that are
most important.
你說得很對。我猜想在我們聯盟，人家都說像在NFL裡，一旦有球隊贏球，剩餘的球隊便
會相繼模仿。某種程度上來說，我覺得NBA也是這樣。這也是為什麼我非常喜愛Pop執教的
方式。我認為Pop，如果你看他的執教身涯，每年他都能很好的運用他隊伍的強項，並且
能掩蓋缺點。而且如果你做時光機回到當初Robinson和Duncan剛開始的時候，那是支充滿
內線能力和優異防守的隊伍，每場比賽他們都不斷和你碰撞，然後當David Robinson退休
後，他們改變了打法，利用快節奏和推進來凸顯Tony Parker和Manu Ginobili的優勢，當
然他們還找來了Diaw，也是個延伸四號，然後他們開始投更多的三分球以及增加球的流動
。然後在簽下Lamarcus Aldridge 和David West後，加上利用Kawhi Leonard的優勢，他
們變成了以低位單打為主，減少了三分的投射，但在進攻上仍然非常有效率，並且在個人
和團體的防守表現上也非常出色。他們在用自己的方式贏球，也覺得這樣是最能讓他們奪
冠的方式。所以我認為一個好的球隊能夠找出自己的優點和缺點，然後用放大優點掩蓋缺
點的方式贏球。我認為其中的關鍵是要能更有效率，最好能在進攻和防守端都是排進前五
的球隊，有前五的籃板能力，最後再來看得失分差，對我來說這些是最重要的指標。
Bill:
Alright, this is a tough question to ask because you wouldn’t know what type
of roster you’d have in this scenario, but let’s say you had the ability to
go big at a good level, or to go small at a good level, and you’re playing
the Warriors, what kind of things would you try to do to disrupt them?
好吧，接下來這個問題有點難問，因為你不知道在那樣的情況下你有什麼樣的球員，但是
假如今天你要對上勇士隊，你只能在大或小的陣容裡擇其一，但兩種陣容實力都不錯，你
會怎麼選，然後你會祭出什麼招式來打亂他們？
Tom:
Well I think you just hit on it because and that’s where you have to give
Golden State a tremendous amount of credit, because they, their organization
has put that roster together because they have the ability to do both. And
they do, they start big and often times play big most of the game. And then,
if they’re down at the end, they have the ability to go to the small lineup
and to change everything. And if you went back to last year’s finals, you
know in game 3, and they’re down and they’re losing big in the fourth
quarter, they went without the center they put David Lee in and they found
something that worked and then so they just kept downsizing from there, and
it worked very effectively for them. So they have the ability to do both so I
think when you’re playing Golden State, you have to have an understanding of
who they have on the floor and how you want to match up. And then also what
schemes are you going to utilize with each unit against what they have out
there because you can’t play the same way. When they go to the small lineup,
there’s some things you can do differently with the big lineup and I think
the big thing with Steph is you can’t give him a steady diet of anything.
You have to keep adjusting to make him read and react to you and even if you
do that he still has the ability to make incredibly tough shots in transition.
我想你的問題點出了一個很重要的事實，這也是為什麼大家必須要給勇士隊非常多的尊敬
，因為他們的球團建立了一支能大能小的球隊，而他們也是如此貫徹這個理念。他們通常
在開賽的時候會擺上大陣容，甚至在比賽裡大部分時間也是如此。然後，如果他們在比賽
尾聲時還落後，他們便擺上小陣容，然後改變整個打法。如果你回去看去年的總決賽，第
三場的時候，他們在第四節落後許多，他們把中鋒拔掉改換上David Lee後發現這個方法
行得通，於是從此他們的陣容越變越小，同時這對他們是個非常有效的方法。所以他們的
隊形兩者兼具，那麼當你與勇士隊對壘的時候，你必須去了解他們場上有誰，然後思考你
要如何應對。你也必須思考要用什麼樣的策略來對付他們的小陣容，而遇上大陣容的時候
又有不同的方法。我認為對付Steph最重要的一點是，你不能用同一種方法守他，你必須
不停變換策略來逼他在場上臨機應變，但是縱使你這樣做他還是能在轉換間投進那些超難
進的球。
Bill:
Right, so as a coach that’s the type of team you lose the most sleep over
because you might do everything perfectly and they’re still gonna hit crazy
shots and beat you anyway.
是啊，所以對上這種隊最能讓教練失眠，因為就算你準備好了一切，他們還是能投進一堆
濠洨球然後擊敗你。
Tom:
Right. I think with any star player, when you prepare and you put in your
game plan together, you have to decide, okay, what are we gonna try to take
away and what are we gonna be willing to live with. And any time you put two
on the ball, you’re gonna be vulnerable in other areas. So I think you have
to determine how much are you going to do that, how are they going to
counter, and what are the shots that we wanna take away. You know, you wanna
take away, the obvious is the layups and the dunks, and then the
catch-and-shoot 3’s, specifically the corner 3’s, and you wanna limit the
free throws. Like to me those are the three areas you lock in to, but you
know the thing is with Klay and Steph they play so well off of each other,
you have to have great awareness and require multiple efforts, and you have
to be able to challenge shots, and then also finish your defense. I think
challenging shots is something that’s incredibly important. But the finish
of the defense is equally, maybe even more important, because they get a lot
of 3’s off of scramble, offensive rebounds, hustle-type plays, and if you’
re not disciplined in where you need to be, they’re gonna make you pay for
that. And Steph is so clever with the ball, you can put him in a box and he
can create just enough space to get that shot off. And you know he gets it
off so quickly he’s almost impossible to guard. But what you’re gonna have
to do with him is try to make him work as much as possible for his points.
對啊。我想當你對上任何明星球員時，當你在準備你的對戰策略時，你必須決定好哪些是
我們要守住而哪些是我們可以放棄的。一旦你決定包夾，其他地方就會有漏洞出現。所以
我認為你必須決定你要多常包夾，而對方會如何反制，以及哪些球是我們要守住的。很明
顯的上籃和灌籃要守住，再來是接了就投的三分球，特別是底角三分，然後要限制罰球數
量。對我來說這三點是一定要做到的，但是說實在的，Klay和Steph他們彼此合作無間，
你必須要有強大的專注力並且不斷努力，然後又要能阻礙他們的投籃，最後還要能完成防
守。我認為阻礙投射非常非常重要。但是貫徹和完成防守也一樣，甚至更重要，因為他們
能在混戰中，搶下進攻籃板後，以及拼搶中爭得很多投三分球的機會，如果你在防守站位
上沒有紀律，他們會讓你吃足苦頭。而且當Steph持球的時候有很多招，就算你把他框住
，他還是能製造足夠的空間來投籃。再加上他出手速度超快幾乎不可能守住他。但是你仍
然需要逼他， 讓他就算要得分也會很辛苦。
Bill:
That’s a team that, they have the most success when the game kinda goes
wonky, especially like the long offensive rebound, uh I’m sorry, long
defense rebound off a 3 or something, and people running back and somebody
lose it and all of a sudden Steph’s making a 26-footer. So much of it is
transition and some sort of screwed up play, or somebody’s over, oh I forgot
oh you’re oh oh, and then they’re making the 3. How do you coach against
that?
這樣的隊伍最能在比賽有點混亂的時候大量得分，尤其是在取得進攻籃板後長傳，哦歹勢
，是取得防守籃板後長傳投三分，還有在球員回防時有人漏人然後Steph瞬間拔起來投進
一顆超大26呎三分。許多的得分都來自於攻防轉換的瞬間或是打亂仗的時候，或是當有人
移防，然後啊我忘記，欸你怎麼欸欸欸欸，然後他們就投進一顆三分。怎麼樣才能教球員
應付這種狀況呢？
Tom:
Yeah I think when you’re going into the game against them, you have to make
your team understand, okay this is a team that averages 30 3’s, and they do
a lot of damage in transition. Your defense in transition is so critical, but
then you have to ask yourself okay how can we get that number down. Like you
don’t want them to do is to take 35 or 40 3’s and then they make a high
percentage. So I think the first thing is how do you get the attempts down,
and then once you get the attempts down, how else can you challenge. And then
what are the ones you absolutely don’t want them to have, I’d say the odds
would be the 2-pointers, and you don’t want them to be catch-and-shoot 3’s
from the corners. And so I think that deciding that is probably the most
important thing and then you have to say okay if we blitz and try to get the
ball out of his hands, where are they putting their people. And then maybe
blitz in certain areas of the floor but I think you have to have that
discipline and your team has to understand what you’re trying to take away,
what you’re willing to live with. Like to me if a guy, if you’re on his
body and you’re forcing him into a certain direction and making him pull the
ball back to you, you know with your shooting hand, and you can challenge
that shot and he makes those, you probably would live with those. Okay but
the ones in which it’s a pass-out, it’s a rhythm shot, those are the ones
that you’re probably not, you know, you wanna take those out as much as you
can.
是啊我認為當你對上他們的時候，你必須讓你的球員們了解，這是一支場均30顆三分，並
且在攻守轉換間極具殺傷力的隊伍。不僅攻防轉換的防守變得非常重要，你也必須思考如
何降低投三分的總數。你不希望他們一場能投35或40顆三分，而且命中率還很高。所以我
認為首要目標是降低三分球的投射次數，一旦次數降低後，再來想如何讓他們投不進。接
著要想哪些機會是必須守住的，我覺得應該是兩分球(應該是指上籃和灌籃)，並且不能讓
他們在三分線角落接了就投。最重要的是要能對防守上的取捨做出決定。接下來你也可以
想想，如果我們嘗試對持球者做壓迫，迫使他把球傳出來，對方球員的站位會是如何。順
著這樣的思維，或許我們可以只在特定的區域裡壓迫。但前提是你的球員必須有這樣的防
守紀律，並且能理解你的策略。譬如說，你把對方守得很緊，迫使他只能往一個方向移動
，但當他把球帶回來準備投籃，而你能用慣用手去阻礙他，但他還是投進的話，那麼雖然
可惜但這仍然是一個成功的防守。但如果是用簡單的傳接，或是順風球，的方式來得分，
那麼這些機會都要被消滅掉。
小結：
其實Thibs對於如何防守的回答滿中規中矩的，當然這問題對他來說假設性本來就很高。
但是值得一題的是他還是傾向對持球者進行壓迫，然後希望能把球逼到防守願意放開的
地方。
而減少三分球出手次數和攻防轉換間的出手次數也是首要目標。
當然說得比做得容易，強如馬刺也有受挫的時候。