Re: [問題]為何基督教對同志那樣反感?其他宗教不會

作者: longnprosper   2016-10-31 07:55:01
先聲明以下內文是個人立場非任何教會立場
並且標題不真 據我讀過Dalai Lama也數次在公開訪問說同性婚姻是"misconduct"
並且我不打算在PTT"戰" 我的時間緊迫要趕著讀數學和哲學
(Reddit上有r/DebateReligion聚集至少美加英各國驍勇善戰人士)
論述"same-sex marriage is sinful/unjustifiable/unethical/immoral"
的基督徒有至少一個如下基本假設
"the state of the world is not the best of all possible states of the world
since there is orientation of same-sex marriage"
"the world could be brought about into a better state in which there is no
orientation of same-sex marriage"
然而哲學家曾論證過
基督徒Leibniz的原句: "this world is the best of all possible worlds"
用我的話說的版本: "this state of the world is the best of all possible
states of the world"
論證出處與用我的話說的論證細節如下
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz/#Opt
1. God is omnipotent and omniscient and omnibenevolent and the free creator of
the world (Definition)
2. The world could have possibly been brought about into other states (i.e.
there are other possible states of the world) (Premise)
3. Suppose this state of the world is not the best of all possible states of
the world (i.e."The world could be brought about into a better state")
4. If this world is not in the best of all possible states of the world, then
at least one of the following must be the case:
* God was not powerful enough to bring about a better state of the world;
* God did not know how the state of this world will develop after his
creation (i.e. God lacked foreknowledge);
* God did not wish this world to be in the best state;
* God did not create the world;
* there were no other possible states of the world from which God could
choose to bring about
5. But any one or more of the disjuncts of (4) contradicts (1) or (2)
6. Therefore this state of the world is the best of all possible state of the
world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_all_possible_worlds
1. God knows infinitely many possible states of the universe
2. Only one of these states of the universe can actually exist
3. God has reason to choose one among all possible states of the universe
4. God is good
5. Therefore the state of the universe that God chose to exist is the best of
all possible states of the universe
所以也許基督徒"放下對同性婚姻的(負面)成見"不必預設"存在即無誤"
只要接受如上基督徒Leibniz的論證即可有充足立場
Edit1:
我的想法用中文表達:
這個世界,是全知全善全能的神所塑造,雖然同性婚姻傾向存在,並且同性婚姻傾向是
sinful/unjustifiable的;但根據基督徒萊布尼茲的論證-主要想法就是不接受神的塑造
與全知全善全能矛盾:這個世界是所有神能夠塑造的世界中最好的。這論證否定了同性婚
姻傾向不存在的世界會更好。
不過我直覺也不覺得這想法無懈可擊,萊布尼茲在他的倫理學可能有別的想法(我沒讀那
麼多),批判是歡迎的。
作者: neohippie (米國聖光肥魯八嘎囧)   2016-10-31 08:39:00
結論最後一句看不懂best of all possible state = as God sees fitit does not exclude the existence of evil or sinor sufferingit does not exclude the possibility ofhomosexualityand it does not exclude the command of evangelismto evangelize is NOT to say that this world is notthe best. And it is NOT to say that we are tryingto "better" the best state (which makes no sense)What we do, is simply part of that chosen state簡單來說,我不同意你上面給的基督徒兩項假設兩項假設應該都不是基督徒的主張(沒有要戰的意思,純粹討論。歡迎回應)
作者: kalestorm (沒心情)   2016-10-31 12:00:00
達賴說的是口交, 肛交, 「手淫」, 同性性交, 他依據的是藏傳僧侶的著作. 順便說依照那些論著 嫖妓有付錢不犯戒. 達賴本人則支持同性婚姻, 認為那是人權對了, 我記得依同本論著, 月經或懷孕期間性交也是犯戒抱歉,記錯,達賴是說同性婚姻是個人事務, 由政府決定要不要通過
作者: GSXSP (Gloria)   2016-10-31 16:12:00
你的這個argument不限於同性婚姻, 所以若你的結論是leave as is, 那所有罪我們都不必關心了. 神在有自由意志的前提下造出最好的世界, 世界因自由意志而不斷改變(在任何時間點都是那時間可能的最好的狀況), 並且神介入護理世界運行,按著神的救贖計畫, 使得按自由意志選擇神的道路的人, 得以與祂同享永恆的榮耀.
作者: neohippie (米國聖光肥魯八嘎囧)   2016-10-31 21:37:00
所以你的結論是基督徒應該接受同性婚姻,因為同性婚姻是最好世界的一部分。是這樣嗎?
作者: Jeby171 (你好嗎)   2016-11-02 04:53:00
聖經是這世界最差的一部分 完全是虛構出來的殺人魔小說
作者: windseeker (windseeker)   2016-11-02 19:55:00
樓上大可不必來這裡發廢文

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