Re: [問題]為何基督教對同志那樣反感?其他宗教不會

作者: rehoboth (火流星!降臨!)   2016-10-31 11:48:52
為了避免像上次那樣的一直再加推文,我還是用回文好了
你提到的Leibniz,應該是讓"神義論"這個詞確定為神學術語的
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz
(其實這句沒多大意義,純粹寫給別人看,讓後續的人可以比較快找到關鍵字線索)
重點是--他講的是
"this world is the best of all possible worlds"
"我們所在的世界,是所有可能的世界中,最好的一個"
(不認同這樣翻譯的話,就麻煩你自己翻譯了)
這世界的"正當性",就在於它是"所有可能的世界中最好/最靠近無誤的"
也就是"逼近"無誤(因此最好)
(果然這傢伙是發明微積分的人)
就嚴格的邏輯表述而言,是可以說不必預設存在即無誤
只要預設這世界是所有可能世界中最好的
_
不過大部分人處理0.9,也是當成1;
也許你可以有所突破,我樂觀其成。
至於你後來的補充
『這個世界,是全知全善全能的神所塑造,雖然同性婚姻傾向存在,
並且同性婚姻傾向是sinful/unjustifiable的;
但根據基督徒萊布尼茲的論證-主要想法就是不接受神的塑造與全知全善全能矛盾:
這個世界是所有神能夠塑造的世界中最好的。
這論證否定了同性婚姻傾向不存在的世界會更好。』
就牴觸了我原先貼文指出的"重點"
重點是--在神的拯救裡面,世界運作的規則要被改變,
而不是繼續如我們現今所觀察到的持續下去。
這世界將會被救贖為新天新地
換言之,你(或者萊布尼茲)所主張的最好世界,仍是會變動的而不是靜止不變
這是他原本論證中沒有交代清楚的
如果照你的理解
既然死亡存在的現存世界是"最好的",否定了死亡不存在的世界會更好
我認為這是誤讀+超譯了萊布尼茲,或者說至少無法與聖經經文的正常詮釋一致
(也有可能萊布尼茲真會是那樣主張,我跟他不熟)
※ 引述《longnprosper ()》之銘言:
: 先聲明以下內文是個人立場非任何教會立場
: 並且標題不真 據我讀過Dalai Lama也數次在公開訪問說同性婚姻是"misconduct"
: 並且我不打算在PTT"戰" 我的時間緊迫要趕著讀數學和哲學
: (Reddit上有r/DebateReligion聚集至少美加英各國驍勇善戰人士)
: 論述"same-sex marriage is sinful/unjustifiable/unethical/immoral"
: 的基督徒有至少一個如下基本假設
: "the state of the world is not the best of all possible states of the world
: since there is orientation of same-sex marriage"
: "the world could be brought about into a better state in which there is no
: orientation of same-sex marriage"
: 然而哲學家曾論證過
: 基督徒Leibniz的原句: "this world is the best of all possible worlds"
: 用我的話說的版本: "this state of the world is the best of all possible
: states of the world"
: 論證出處與用我的話說的論證細節如下
: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz/#Opt
: 1. God is omnipotent and omniscient and omnibenevolent and the free creator of
: the world (Definition)
: 2. The world could have possibly been brought about into other states (i.e.
: there are other possible states of the world) (Premise)
: 3. Suppose this state of the world is not the best of all possible states of
: the world (i.e."The world could be brought about into a better state")
: 4. If this world is not in the best of all possible states of the world, then
: at least one of the following must be the case:
: * God was not powerful enough to bring about a better state of the world;
: * God did not know how the state of this world will develop after his
: creation (i.e. God lacked foreknowledge);
: * God did not wish this world to be in the best state;
: * God did not create the world;
: * there were no other possible states of the world from which God could
: choose to bring about
: 5. But any one or more of the disjuncts of (4) contradicts (1) or (2)
: 6. Therefore this state of the world is the best of all possible state of the
: world
: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_all_possible_worlds
: 1. God knows infinitely many possible states of the universe
: 2. Only one of these states of the universe can actually exist
: 3. God has reason to choose one among all possible states of the universe
: 4. God is good
: 5. Therefore the state of the universe that God chose to exist is the best of
: all possible states of the universe
: 所以也許基督徒"放下對同性婚姻的(負面)成見"不必預設"存在即無誤"
: 只要接受如上基督徒Leibniz的論證即可有充足立場

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